I feel that a recent conversation on FB that I had with a Sola Scrittura fan needs airing to a wider audience, God willing. 

Her original post says: “The Bible also prohibits praying to the dead - like dead 'saints' for instance. The Bible tells us that the only Mediator between God and man is Jesus and it says that He ever lives to make intercession for us. We do not need dead saints to intercede for us as if Jesus' intercession wasn't enough or wasn't good enough. They are in need of His intercession just as much as anyone else does. When you pray to saints and think that they can hear you and thousands of other Christians across the world all at the same time you are giving to them attributes that belong to God alone - therefore you are making gods out of them.  We do not need dead saints to intercede for us as if Jesus' intercession wasn't enough or wasn't good enough. They are in need of His intercession just as much as anyone else does. When you pray to saints and think that they can hear you and thousands of other Christians across the world all at the same time you are giving to them attributes that belong to God alone - therefore you are making gods out of them.”

I responded:

There are many Scriptural texts to show there is a sound Scriptural base for Catholic beliefs in the intercession of the Saints and the angels.

 I will break up your post into several points but not always in the order you wrote them, and answer the points one by one.

1. You say, “They are in need of His intercession just as much as anyone else does.” Valeria, no one in heaven needs intercessory prayer because only those who are perfect can enter heaven.  (Rev 21: 27)

When Saint Stephen was being stoned to death after his transfiguration (Acts 6: 25), he gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at God’s right hand then while he was dying he called out, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” (Acts 8: 55-60) He was privileged to see, and able to describe where he was going a few moments before he left this world.  He could hardly be heading for spiritual death if he saw Jesus waiting for him in heaven.

 2.  You wrote: When you pray to saints and think that they can hear you and thousands of other Christians across the world all at the same time you are giving to them attributes that belong to God alone - therefore you are making gods out of them.”

Jesus says something intriguing in John 10: 34-36, when he is defending himself against charges of blasphemy:

"The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? [Psalms 82: 1-7] If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?"

2 Peter 1:4 says, “For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.”

From my reading of the New Testament, I see other texts that give this idea of God granting us, through Christ’s incarnation, a sharing of Christ’s divine son-ship when we make it to heaven. Paul teaches this in more than one text.  1 Cor 15: 49 is fascinating: "Just as we have borne the image of the earthly one, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly one.”  How can we bear the image of the heavenly one unless we bear some of His properties?

In 1 Cor 6: 2-3, Paul writes that Saints will judge men and angels: “Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life!”

 

How can the Saints judge other men and angels unless they have a capacity to read hearts and souls on a divine scale?  If they will be doing that, they can certainly do the lesser work of listening to hundreds of petitions at a time.  Therefore the Saints do have some godly attributes.  All of us who make it to heaven will have such attributes one day.  And when our souls are joined to our glorious bodies at last, we will be able to take our bodies, not just our spiritual souls, through walls, just as Christ did. 

 3.  You say, “The Bible also prohibits praying to the dead - like dead 'saints' for instance.” Catholics do not pray to dead people.  The “dead” of the NT referenced in this way are the souls of the damned or actual demons.  That is why we are forbidden to deal with mediums, spiritualism, tarot cards, etc. etc.  All Christians may pray to living souls in heaven.  

You are quite right in saying we do not NEED their prayers, but it is not a sin to seek friendships among the saints already living in the heavenly court.  We honour God by honouring them.  Catholics know we can speak directly to the Father in Jesus’ Name and we do; we know we can speak directly to Jesus and we do; we know we can pray directly to the Holy Spirit and we do.  We pray via spontaneous prayers or via set prayers.  I do it daily, every praying Catholic does.  But Catholics are also aware of how little and unworthy we are and there is absolutely nothing wrong at all in approaching our Maker prayerfully via the Blessed Virgin or another known Saint.  I refer you back to an earlier reply in which I pointed out that all prayers to Saints end with a "Gloria" to the Trinity and/or “In Jesus’ Name.”   The Legion Prayer for the beatification of its founder, Frank Duff, is typical.  Once God has shown He is pleased about this, then we will pray for Frank’s canonisation.

Prayer for the Beatification of the Servant of God Frank Duff

God our Father, You inspired your servant Frank Duff with a profound insight into the mystery of Your Church, the Body of Christ, and of the place of Mary the Mother of Jesus in this mystery.

In his immense desire to share this insight with others and in filial dependence on Mary he formed her Legion to be a sign of her maternal love for the world and a means of enlisting all her children in the Church's evangelising work.

I/We thank you Father for the graces conferred on him and for the benefits accruing to the Church from his courageous and shining faith. With confidence I/we beg You that through his intercession you grant the petition I/we lay before You (here mention your petitition).  I/We ask too that if it be in accordance with Your will, the holiness of his life may be acknowledged by the Church for the glory of your Name, through Christ Our Lord, Amen.

 

 4.  You say, “We do not need dead saints to intercede for us as if Jesus' intercession wasn't enough or wasn't good enough.” The Bible indicates in John 2: 1-11 that we can have intercessors between us and God’s Son, Jesus Christ, when we read of  Mary’s intercession for her friends at Cana.  If you think about it, it is perfectly reasonable to assume she intervened on other occasions of which the details have not been handed down to us.  You intercede for your friends here on earth when you pray to God for them and do not describe yourself as a mediator.  Obviously men NEED no other intercessor than Jesus.  Jesus mediates on our behalf with his Father.  But I disagree that He would mind or call it idolatry if we, like humble children, speak to him via His mother or another saint.  He listens to his Mother’s and the saints’ intercessions with him on our behalf and says yes or no.  He is God.  Why wouldn’t He listen to His beloved mother and His best friends?  Is Jesus not their and our brother and their and our best friend as well as our God? 

I was pleased to be sent this thread by a site I follow, called Catholic Answers, as it gives a good explanation of 1 Cor 4:6.  Also, was glad to have the commentary on 1Thess 2:13; 2Thess 2:15; 3:6.  I knew these verses existed but had been unable to find them because I couldn't remember which book they were in.    http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=804806   Jul 11, '13, 9:47 pm

Fr. Eric Filmer Apologist Join Date: May 16, 2013 Location: CAF Posts: 37 Religion: Catholic

Re: Does 1 Corinthians 4:6 teach Sola Scriptura? Although the definition and application of Sola Scriptura ("Scripture alone") can differ among its adherents, the following seems to be a useful working definition: Quote: Scripture is the Church's only infallible and sufficient rule for deciding issues of faith and practices that involve doctrines. While the Bible does not contain all knowledge, it does contain that which is necessary for salvation. Indeed, if something is not found in Scripture, it is not binding upon the believer. (Source: Theopedia) A Sola Scriptura interpretation of First Corinthians 4:6 goes way beyond what the full context of the epistle shows or supports. In 1Cor 1:10-17, Paul tells the Corinthians that he is worried about dissention among them. He then elaborates at length on avoiding the dangers of self-conceit by focusing on the wisdom of God and the power of Christ. Within this section of the epistle, Paul makes the following comments (and I will add emphasis): 1Cor 1:19 - "For it is written, 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the cleverness of the clever I will thwart'." (Here he quotes Isaiah 29:14) 1Cor 1:31 - "…as it is written, 'Let him who boasts, boast of the Lord'." (Here he quotes Jeremiah 9:24) 1Cor 3:19-20 - "For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, 'He catches the wise in their craftiness,' and again, 'The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile'." (Here he quotes Job 5:13 and Psalm 94:11) Therefore, three times Paul states, "It is written…" followed by teachings from the Bible which (generally speaking) tell one to humble oneself in the sight of God. And now we come to the passage in question: 1Cor 4:6 "I have applied all this to myself and Apol'los for your benefit, brethren, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another." What does Paul mean when he tells the Corinthians “not to go beyond what is written"? The full context of chapters 1-4 of First Corinthians shows that he is simply reminding them about the three prior instances when he related what "is written" (i.e., 1Cor 1:19, 31; 3:19-20). Those who deem themselves wise, exalting themselves and causing dissension, go "beyond what is written" in the Bible concerning proper humble behavior. Paul clarifies this himself with the “puffed up" comment. This is a translation of the Greek word physioō which “…was common in Hellenistic rhetoric where it was used to characterize those whose self-conceit was such that it led to partisanship” (Raymond Collins, Sacra Pagina, Vol. 7: First Corinthians [The Liturgical Press: Collegeville, Minnesota, 1999], 177; see the full text for examples). Additional clarification stems from Paul's statement about acting "...in favor of one against the other" as this refers to the dissension described in 1Cor 1:10-11. In terms of the idea that Paul is instead making a Sola Scriptura statement in 1Cor 4:6, consider the following insight: Quote: Interpretations of this verse that suggest Paul is restricting the basis for Christian doctrine and morals to what is explicitly set forth in the books of the Bible (sola scriptura) are misleading and untenable. Nothing in the context points to such a broad concern, and in any case Paul insists elsewhere that even the inspired preaching of the apostles is on a par with the written word of God (1Thess 2:13; 2Thess 2:15; 3:6). (Scott Hahn, Curtis Mitch, The Ignatius Study Bible: The New Testament [Ignatius Press: San Francisco], 289) Simply put, Paul is addressing Christian behavior, not the formulation of Christian doctrine. Interpreting 1Cor 4:6 as a Sola Scriptura statement "goes beyond" what Paul actually wrote. __________________ God bless, Fr. Eric Filmer